In April 2021 the legislature of the U.S. State of Arkansas introduced a bill that prohibited doctors from providing gender-transition treatments to people under 18 years old. The bill would make it a felony for doctors to administer puberty blockers, hormones and gender-reaffirming surgery to anyone under the age of 18. Opponents of the bill argue that it is an assault on transgender rights and that transition treatments are a private matter that should be decided between parents, their children and doctors. Supporters of the bill argue that children are too young to make the decision to receive gender transition treatment and only adults over the age of 18 should be allowed to do so.
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@ISIDEWITH4yrs4Y
No
@9GK28G3CA Common Sense 1yr1Y
Top Agreement
The LGBTQ (a lot of plusses apparently) literally all suffer from gender dysphoria. That is a mental disorder. Why promote a disorder?
@9GN97F4 1yr1Y
That statement is worded incorrectly, or rather purposefully, in order to force a homophobic viewpoint. Your tone is negative and sarcastic in hopes of swaying the contestant to your personal bias against members of the LGBTQ+ community. This leads me to believe you're not entirely convinced in the cause nor willing to learn. Also, the unnecessary "..." indicates your question doesn't stem from innocence, but rather a mocking rhetoric towards those of an opposite viewpoint. As for the complaint on the many "plusses", there's only one collective plus represen… Read more
@9HZ8L7C 1yr1Y
If we're just going to correct spelling and grammar, there's some stuff I would like to mention:
And as for the argument itself, if these individuals that are struggling because of the "issue of poor mental health,"the… Read more
@9VNM3SZ7mos7MO
I wonder, why in God's name would someone kill themselves when they're part of a minority group that's a target of worldwide hatred? Why? It couldn't possibly be because they cannot go outside without experiencing some new flavor of hatred, could it? No! That's ridiculous! Or is it?
@SkepTex 4mos4MO
Engaged Gender Transition #7 Informed Social Issues
Please provide references for the claims you made in this message.
Are you able to provide the data?
@9LR2G62 7mos7MO
I agree 99% beforr the age of 18. After the age of 18 as an adult one should be allowed to have the choice of " My Body My Choice".
@76GZ7S77mos7MO
You claim that the statement was purposefully worded to push a homophobic viewpoint, yet you base this on assumptions about intention rather than the actual content of the argument. It's important to debate the ideas themselves rather than attacking the tone or grammar. Questioning someone's tone doesn't automatically invalidate their viewpoint. Your statement that "homophobia and criticism for that personal identity... creates gender dysphoria" is also incorrect. Gender dysphoria, by definition, arises from a mismatch between one's gender identity and their assi… Read more
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 7mos7MO
“**whether minors have the developmental maturity to make irreversible decisions about their bodies**. If a minor can't get a tattoo, shouldn't we also question whether they can make the decision to undergo hormone therapy or surgery that can have life-altering consequences?”
Unlike getting a tattoo, gender affirming care requires extensive counseling and therapy to even be considered for treatment. This is so that minors will not make choices on a phase or whim. Also gender affirming care particularly hormones can be reversed, its your biological sex that can never be fully reversed.
@9XXBW6Z6mos6MO
“homophobic viewpoint.”
The Term Homophobic is really just a desperate attempt to make someone feel bad for disagreeing with you and brings both sides further from understanding each other especially If the LGBTQ community labels everyone who disagrees with them in the slightest as "Homophobic" it just makes them look worse, Christians don't call Atheists/LGBTQ individuals "Christophobic" or whatever it would be called simply because they don't agree with Christianity.
@9Y8JDZV6mos6MO
“The Term Homophobic is really just a desperate attempt to make someone feel bad for disagreeing with you and brings both sides further from understanding each other especially If the LGBTQ community labels everyone who disagrees with them in the slightest as "Homophobic" it just makes them look worse”
You're homophobic.
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 5mos5MO
Its not meant to be used that way. Its supposed to be for someone who's constantly hating on them.
@9YD4GJQ6mos6MO
maybe it's not the christianity, but the FLAVOR of it ( nobody likes an orthadox prodestant)
@Ars-Gratia-Artis1yr1Y
As much of a Grammar Nazi as I am (hail Oxford) this partially constitutes an ad hominem attack.
Your logical fallacy is ad hominemhttps://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
That is not a valid argumentative tactic. Try again.
@9GKYYW21yr1Y
Only transgender people have gender dysphoria. All modern science concurs that the mental disorder is only able to be treated by transitioning.
@Ars-Gratia-Artis1yr1Y
“All modern science concurs that the mental disorder is only able to be treated by transitioning.”
Actually, modern science does not support this. While yes, some places have found findings that all transgender people have gender dysphoria (I wonder why this correlation exists, /sarcasm) this is not an effective cure. Many people have expressed continued problems after their transitions. While some are happy and make it past, some are not. I agree that it is a mental disorder. However, many people who tried a therapeutic route also expressed positive results. It is not factual to state that all modern science concurs, it actually does not, nor that the only treatment is transitioning. In… Read more
@helloitsnatalia6mos6MO
your argument rests on an appeal to the authority of grifter with no credential or credibility in gender science, biology, or even actual psychological science (hes a jungian therapist). you have no idea what youre talking about and are just another malinformed bigot pretending to care about people while actively poisoning the discourse.
@Ars-Gratia-Artis1yr1Y
Actually, they do not. The LGB group and the TQ+ are actually having a major schism right now. The concept of LGB relies entirely on a gender binary existing. That is, what is "gay" if any of the two biological sexes are both considered men? The erasure is unintentional, certainly, but the two groups don't really have much to do with each other. And honestly, yes, the pluses are out of hand at this point. The disorder is promoted because the population is loud, and will try to silence dissenters. Like Jordan B. Peterson. I don't think they're wrong on some things, and… Read more
Being LGB and TQ are all immoral
@9V2S8MSTranshumanist7mos7MO
LGB are all sexual orientations. T is fiction. And Q is made up.
Being Transgender is not made "fiction" as you say. Queer also not made up. It is both a term that encompasses the whole LGBTQIA+ community and Gender Queer is in fact a gender. Q also stands for questioning, people who are questioning their gender and/or sexuality. These are real things. Just because you don't feel them doesn't mean it's not real.
@B4BQGY64wks4W
I'm a cisgender lesbian and I disagree. Trans people had important roles in the history of LGBT rights, such as with Stonewall, and were one of the first people to be dehumanized by Nazis. Nonbinary people also existed in some form among various indigenous cultures.
Gender is a social construct but it's still there and people get treated differently depending on their gender, or some people don't like their bodies and wish they were born a different s ex.
Q stands for Queer and is not just a gender, it's a catch-all word for LGBT+
Some people don't label their sexuality. Some people's sexuality is based on traits other than gender. Humans are complex.
@SkepTex 4mos4MO
Engaged Gender Transition #7 Informed Social Issues
Questioning your identity is “made up?”
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 7mos7MO
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and so on don't rely on gender binary exist because its what you identify with not necessarily what your sexuality is. I'm technically bisexual because I love women and non-binary genders, but I identify much more with lesbian because although I love non-binary genders I mostly only love people who present more feminine.
The "disorder" as you say is promoted ,yes because the population can be loud, but also it's pretty effing rough to be trans, as even within the LGBTQ+ community we can end up being outsiders and "freaks." We simply… Read more
Peterson cites thin and biased sources, sources that are often created to prove a biased idea from the onset.
LGBTQ+ people often respect and cite research in vain hopes that those that oppose their existence due to religious indoctrination would actually look at said research instead of nod their heads when people like Peterson pontificate vapidly.
Gender and sex are separate spectrums and a trans man dating a cis man can refer to their relationship as gay or not, it is up to them. In the light of day, what does it matter to you?
@9GLFNC61yr1Y
You shouldn't change you body until you are of age because the body has not fully developed so you should wait until then if you still have the same beliefs then go ahead by all means
@B4BQGY64wks4W
Puberty is permanent. Puberty blockers are used to delay puberty so that trans teenagers have more time to mature before making a decision. I'm not saying just anyone should get this treatment either- there should be regulations, of course. I'm just unsure that we should completely ban it, especially considering the suicide risk.
@AmiableIguana1wk1W
Puberty blockers aren’t risk-free “pause buttons”—they can impact bone density, fertility, and even brain development, especially if used for long periods. In some European countries like Sweden and Finland, health authorities have actually restricted the use of puberty blockers for gender dysphoria in minors because of these concerns and the lack of long-term evidence. If we’re worried about giving kids time to mature, shouldn’t we also worry about exposing them to medical treatments whose long-term effects we don’t fully understand? If your goal is to protect vulnerable teens, what about the potential for regret or harm from medical interventions? How would you address the risk of pushing a young person down a medical path that they might wish they hadn’t taken a few years later?
@9H57JLZ 1yr1Y
Top Disagreement
I started hormones at 15, and I still think it's the best decision I have ever made. Without it, I probably would have taken my own life.
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 7mos7MO
Without treatment many trans people will attempt suicide. This really shows how important it is to give better access to these treatments especially to teens who are at an extra high risk (around 41% of unaccepted trans youth commit suicide)
@LeopardEliana1wk1W
The 41% statistic is often cited, but it refers to suicidal thoughts or attempts, not completed suicides, and doesn’t prove that medical transition is the solution—especially since studies show suicide risk remains elevated in trans people even after treatment. Sweden, for example, found higher suicide rates in adults post-transition than the general population.
@WordFile2mos2MO
I did at 14, I went with the intention of getting puberty blockers just to stop estrogen from further causing damage until I could start T, but went out with a prescription for testosterone gel. I went from just trying to make it to 18 to finally living! 4 years later still without regrets, and currently trying to schedule top surgery to undo what estrogen did.
@9G4ZNF22yrs2Y
All people, including young people, have the right to bodily autonomy and self-expression. No one else has the right to tell them how they must perform gender or what they can do to their own bodies.
@9HZ8L7C 1yr1Y
Should a ten year old kid ask for a lobotomy because he thinks his ADHD is getting out of hand?
@helloitsnatalia6mos6MO
this is a ridiculous non sequiter that exposes your inability to engage in the details and experiences surrounding this conversation. just another bloviating bigot allowed purchase in the discourse by poorly moderated chats like this one.
@B3ZG7ZN1mo1MO
ah yes, the perfect way to argue a point. Simply insult the other party instead of actually using facts. oh and don't forget to use "big" words to make it sound like you actually know what your talking about, even when you don't.
@Ars-Gratia-Artis1yr1Y
@B4BQGY64wks4W
Ah yes, "he" because only boys get ADHD. Apparently I don't exist.
@TheHillbillyLordRepublican4mos4MO
I understand that people should be able to have a right to do anything they want with their bodies, even if they want to screw over their body, it is technically their right. However what I hate is how the government is supporting these sick people by forcing us to accept them and treat them equally. I do not want to accept people who have screwed over their bodies, messing it up permanently. No only do we have to accept them, they are getting special treatment for their choices, because they are the "minority". It's like if I want to get special treatment all I gotta do is sli… Read more
@B4BQGY64wks4W
Well you're not trans obviously so you have no idea what it's like. You could at least listen to their experiences.
@B3ZG7ZN1mo1MO
“No one else has the right to tell them how they must perform gender or what they can do to their own bodies.”
(currently am 13)
Okay I'm sorry, but how the hell is it not our business that kids are doing this stuff to themselves and are encouraging it to others? WE ARE THE FUTURE. These treatments can cause infertility, correct? well how the actual hell is the human race supposed to thrive and live for future generations if we cant even have kids? It's not only about that one person, and to think that it is is selfish as all getout, your actions affect others and I don't think that many of the people understand just how influential that they can be.
@B4BQGY64wks4W
The whole human race isn't trans. And being selfish can be a good thing, like if somebody instinctively calls you a name you don't like and you ask them to stop. To be selfish is to support yourself at the inconvenience of others.
Pressuring a cis person to be trans is a different story and should be taken into consideration. I'd rather have people informed if they're going to be changing their body in any drastic way, but if a trans teen is truly trans, truly wants it, is informed, has gone through therapy for it, and has the resources for it shouldn't it be allowed? If you're not trans, put yourself in their shoes. Read what they say and what experts say rather than strangers on the internet.
It literally is none of our business. It is a private and personal medical decision process between the patient and their medical provider.
@9V2S8MSTranshumanist7mos7MO
Do you believe the same RE: Abortion?
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 7mos7MO
What does that have to do with teens receiving gender affirming treatment?
the two issues are quite different
@9XHYYPD6mos6MO
never head of reabortion before
@ISIDEWITH4yrs4Y
No, children should not be allowed to make irreversible life decisions
@TheRacingWolf 2yrs2Y
Top Disagreement
The suicide rates of children who receive gender-affirming care are astronomically lower than those who don't. Additionally, the divorce rate and the amount of people who work in a field unrelated to their college major are much higher than the rate of people who regret transgender surgery. While the former two are encouraged, the latter is looked down upon.
@98HV8R7 2yrs2Y
The concept of gender-affirming care is too recent to record accurate data regarding its effects. Teenagers who receive gender-affirming care will not experience the full scope of the decision until they reach an age of maturity, apply for jobs, date, begin careers. Only then will the concept of "regret," or not, be accurately recorded. Children who are unable to consent to sexual relations, vote, pay taxes, or be approved for a loan should not be subject to gender-affirming care, particularly if the procedure creates permanent physical changes.
gender-affirming care is not a new concept its been researched since the 1930s
@WordFile2mos2MO
Pretty sure it was before then as well, but it's a bit hard to tell since the first thing the Nazi's did was burn down all trans related research they could find :/
@782VYT68mos8MO
In a recent study, 35.1% of persons who get their first tattoo before age 18 express regret, but only 12.8% of persons 18 years or older regret their first tattoo (Liszewski et al., 2015).
Regret among tattooed adolescents
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 6mos6MO
Its not a recent concept. its existed since the 1930s, just was illegal in almost all countries until recently. Most people couldn't afford to move to another country to receive the treatment, so they just never did. As it becomes legal in the US it becomes more widespread and easily available to those who need it, making it seem like its new.
That's right. If a child cannot gamble or take drugs, why can they go through a sex change operation? In fact, I'd argue taking drugs is safer than transitioning, because at least with drugs there's still addiction treatment, but gender transitioning surgeries are completely irreversible.
@9HZ8L7C 1yr1Y
The most in-detail study on this says otherwise. The conclusion says:
"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
The suicide rates from that same study are also quite shocking. People who have undergone gender-reassignment… Read more
This is a study that uses outdated terminology (transsexualism) and misrepresents the numbers to the point of being malicious. A reputable source would always compare the population being studied to the control. The control in this case being non-transitioned individuals who have gender dysphoria. Comparing transitioned individuals to the general population's suicide rate to portray gender affirming surgery as ineffective is dishonest, when the suicide rate markedly improves compared to the untansitioned control.
@9FPLGCR2yrs2Y
I agree with this very much. As a transgender citizen, gender-affirming care has ended my depression, which was a result of biochemical issues due to my brain being wired to receive testosterone. I am functionally a male, and without gender-affirming care I would likely have killed myself by now.
@Ars-Gratia-Artis1yr1Y
Out of curiosity, and please don't attack me, would therapy possibly have created a similar outcome?
@9JTVXMF1yr1Y
The vast majority of Trans folks that have pursued gender-affirming care have undergone years of therapy to get there. Your medical team (including your therapist) has to clear you for gender-affirming care. Some folks can combat their gender dysphoria and related depression with a combination of affirming therapy and self-expression, but this is uncommon.
Just try to keep in mind that everybody's different, A way is not THE way, and that gender-affirming care saves lives.
@9V2S8MSTranshumanist7mos7MO
"Suicide rates" are simply natural selection against mental illness.
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 6mos6MO
Natural selection also says that humans born with physical disabilities should die, but would you say that we should not give them the help they need to live?
@@1876-Elbert6mos6MO
Natural Selection says babies should live, but here we are tearing them LIMB FROM LIMB before they are even born. By that extension, why not? If we will kill babies, with a right to life, why wouldn't we kill disabled people with the same right?
Depends on how severe it is.
@helloitsnatalia6mos6MO
this is eugenicist and genocidal language. where are the mods?
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 6mos6MO
Isidewith has no moderators... its run by Artificial Intelligence
If someone has a severe illness and wants to commit suicide, then it can be a way to "cleanse" the human population of mental illnesses when all the sick people kill themselves. Even better, we won't have to commit systematic killings to end the disease, as the sick people will be killing themselves.
@9G7ZH5B2yrs2Y
Transgenderism is wrong, and with an undeveloped mind you must be borderline retarded to suggest that anyone should give a child permission to get an irreversible procedure with lifelong negative effects
@9GB5SGP 2yrs2Y
If a child is expressing that they are not comfortable in their own body, you should be paying attention to that. Not how you may feel about what they are saying. Put your child's needs before your beliefs. They may be young or old, but they know how they feel. It is THEIR bodies. You shouldn't be using "restarted" as a reference to this topic, or anything really. That's just as wrong as how you feel about this topic.
@9SSGZKX8mos8MO
This is woke nonsense.
Lets agree on giving my child life changing body mutilations below the age of consent! Lovely!
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 6mos6MO
If the parent says no the child cannot receive them. If you really feel that uncomfortable about it you can say no. I don't think you should but you have the ability to.
@WordFile2mos2MO
All trans related healthcare requires parental consent.
In America, any treatment besides hormone blockers and HRT are extremely rare, the only cases I was able to find being mastectomies (removal of breast tissue). All of these treatments require permission of the individual's entire medical team (i.e. doctors, therapists, psychologists, etc.), hormone blockers require at least one parent to consent, HRT requires both, and I'm not as well versed in the process for surgery for minors due to how rare it is, but I do know it at least requires approval from entire medical team, surgeon, and both parents.
@MereVot3rVo1ceIndependent8mos8MO
My child has expressed that they feel extremely agitated and uncomfortable if they don't eat a diet consisting entirely of candy and soda. How should I proceed?
@9G8GB962yrs2Y
Literally nobody is suggesting surgery on children. Straw man arguments do nothing productive when it comes to discussing gender affirmation for children.
@9TLP3CF7mos7MO
Many people are suggesting irreversible surgery on children. I disagree, and think they should be of age and know what they are agreeing to.
@helloitsnatalia6mos6MO
most irreversible gender affirming surgeries are for breasts for cis boys with gynecomastia and cis girls reducing breast related pain. its legal for fathers to purchase their teen daughters bigger boobs, but you balk at the kinds of procedures that might save lives while ignorant of the actual silliness of the status quo.
@9G8K4KD2yrs2Y
The “procedures” in question are very reversible. There are very very few people advocating for surgery for minors under 16 years of age. Trans affirming healthcare involves hormone blockers, which simply delay the process of puberty, which is an irreversible process.
@PBJoe2yrs2Y
This issue is a personal medical issue that should be between a patient and their doctors/therapists.
@9FBGL672yrs2Y
Top Agreement
Children have all types of wild thoughts and ideas. Adults have the responsibility to guide them through those
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 6mos6MO
Thats why a child is unable to just walk into a doctor's office and have gender affirming care done. They have to get permission and have multiple adults agree its in their best interests.
@9HGW5LH1yr1Y
The WPATH suggested requirements to recieve trans related care are high enough, as per the Standards of Care.
The WPATH suggested requirements needed for minors to recieve trans related care are high enough to eliminate those that are just too imaginitive.
The following recommendations are made regarding the requirements for gender-affirming medical and surgical treatment (All of them must be met): 6.12- We recommend health care professionals assessing transgender and gender diverse adolescents only recommend gender-affirming medical or surgical treatments requested by the patient when: 6.12.a- the adolescent meets the diagnostic criteria of gender incongruence as per the ICd-11 in situations where… Read more
@9FRM5KV2yrs2Y
My best counter-argument to this is that if a child is old enough (around 16-18) they are capable of understanding and learning about everything that goes into the process we should be supportive of them and allow them to embrace who they really are. We shouldn't have control of their gender identity. Only they should have control over that.
@ISIDEWITH4yrs4Y
Yes
@8LC79N5Republican 2yrs2Y
Top Disagreement
That studies have shown the vast majority of children will outgrow any dysphoria if they are not medically or socially transitioned, and that suicide rates remain at the same high rate pre and post transition, suggesting transitioning is of dubious benefit.
@9FBMTDMWomen’s Equality2yrs2Y
While that may be true, if you do not give the child the choice, support, and help they need they may end up dead because of your carelessness.
@8LC79N5Republican2yrs2Y
And they may end up dead if you do, that is the point of the original comment. In that case, it is better to do nothing. They can always transition as adults, but cannot undo many of the changes if transitioned young.
@78LFWD6Peace and Freedom7mos7MO
A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder
Follow-up studies, such as those conducted in Canada and the Netherlands, found that around 80% of children no longer experienced gender dysphoria after puberty.
@Renaldo-MoonGreen 6mos6MO
Expert Gender Identity #6 Expert Gender Transition
Hmmm...
Maybe they transitioned and the dysphoria went away...with treatment called gender affirming care.
@9GL88Q4Independent1yr1Y
We do not allow children to drink, smoke, or even vote. The human brain is not fully developed until age 25. Children can not make this decision and must wait until they are adults.
Children know their identities. This is a personal decision, from within, as opposed to a decision made from external factors. In this case, the arguments presented here - while valid - are moot.
@9GMFQ8LRepublican1yr1Y
Kids shouldn't even be worried about transitioning, they are too young to know whats best for them. Kids also make stupid mistakes and if they transition then they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
@9TQVC727mos7MO
Thank you! This is an extremely serious life-changing decision, and children are not mature enough to make that choice yet.
@9GLQNTLProgressive1yr1Y
Children under 18 are allowed to get any medical procedures if their parents consent. To ban medical procedures related to gender transitioning under 18 you would have to prove how those specific treatments cause harm which we don’t have any objective proof of.
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