Discussing - If we made up laws of logic when we made up lan…

@Patriot-#1776ConstitutionDisagreementsStarted 4mos agoActive 1mo ago

“We made up these laws of logic when we made up language and communication.”

If we made up laws of logic when we made up language and communication, how does one explain the fact that they are universal, applicable everywhere, and unchanging. If like language, they were mere products of our minds, they could not apply outside our finite minds, making them impossible to apply to the universe or world around us. If we merely used the laws of logic because they work and life goes better for us when we use them, that's well and good, but it necessitates their existence before the creation of man. And if laws or logic were just agreed upon objections, why does every… Read more single human being on the planet, regardless of culture, use the laws of identity, non-contradiction, and the excluded middle? In your scenario, people would have separate laws of logic and could vote to change them by convention. It makes zero sense. Imagine taking a trip to Uganda and worrying "I sure hope they use the Law of Identity over there!" It doesn't work, and it's obviously stupid. The only way we could have laws of logic that always apply is if a Creator established them, because otherwise they would not apply to the entire universe. Because they do, there must necessarily be One who set the universe into motion, along with the laws of logic.

▲▲Reply to this Context •••Agree Disagree Tell me more React Request reference + My feed Mute author Follow

39 Replies

@VulcanMan6 from Kansas commented…4mos4MO

If we made up laws of logic when we made up language and communication, how does one explain the fact that they are universal, applicable everywhere, and unchanging.

Because that's how language and communication works. Two people can point at a dog and call it two different things in two different languages, but both words are still referring to the exact same thing. We made up the multiple different languages that still communicate the exact same words and meanings that we assigned to things. The "laws of logic" are merely conditions of our own understanding of how we communica… Read morete the world around us.

I can even explain individually (using true/false for simplicity):

1) The law of identity would posit that something that is true, must be true. This is merely because of the purpose of what "true" is. Something that is "true" is true because that is what "true" means...we made the word "true" to specifically describe things that are correct. Nothing needed to be "true" before we came along to say that "being true" was a thing. No god was necessary here, just people assigning meaning to things.

2) The law of non-contradiction would posit that something cannot be both true AND false. This is again merely because of the purpose of what "true" and "false" is. Something that is correct is "true" and something that is not correct is "false", because we assigned those words specifically to communicate the concept of something being correct or not. Again, no god was necessary here, just our own definitions of the concepts that "true" and "false" were created to explain.

3) The law of excluded middle would posit that something can only be either true OR false. Similarly, again, this is merely because of the purpose of what "true" and "false" is. BECAUSE something that is correct is "true" and something that is not correct is "false", we have created a dichotomy in which there is no alternative option. By our own definition, things can only be one or the other: either it is correct, therefore "true", or it is not correct, therefore "false". Anything that is not "true" is definitionally "false", and vice versa, because we made those words to be that way. And yet again, no god was necessary here, just our own definitions of the concepts that "true" and "false" were created to explain.

I do not even understand how you are getting your assertion that a god is necessary for any of these in the first place. Logic was made up BY people, as a natural condition of communicating our own man-made meanings and concepts to each other. If no intelligent species ever evolved to assign meaning to things, then there would not be any "logic" to draw from anything in the first place; without us assigning meaning, the universe would have none...it simply exists.

In your scenario, people would have separate laws of logic and could vote to change them by convention.

No, because the "laws of logic" are not like legal laws; the laws of logic are dependent on our own definitions of words and meanings. We did not "decide" on what the laws of logic are, the laws of logic are merely properties of language and communication. Think of it like math: we did not "make up" mathematics in the sense that we "decided that 1+1=2", we simply made up numbers as a form of communicating the groups and values of things, and mathematics are merely a property of how these groups/values relate to each other, regardless of what we call them. We made up numbers, but mathematics is simply a function of numbers, just as we made up language and communication, but the laws of logic are simply a function of this. That's why your misunderstanding sounds so ridiculous.

Literally everything we know about the universe can be, and is, explained without the need for a god...

▲▲Reply to this Link Context •••Agree Disagree Tell me more React Request reference + My feed Mute author Follow 1

@Patriot-#1776Constitution from Washington commented…4mos4MO

If man made up the laws of logic as he made up language, they would not be universally-applicable laws at all, but rather fickle and changing as the majority decides.

▲▲Reply to this Link Context •••Agree Disagree Tell me more React Request reference + My feed Mute author Follow

@VulcanMan6 from Kansas commented…4mos4MO

I literally addressed this exact claim of yours in my last paragraph; did you just not read my response or are you choosing to be willfully ignorant? Here's how I explained why your statement is incorrect:

No, because the "laws of logic" are not like legal laws; the laws of logic are dependent on our own definitions of words and meanings. We did not "decide" on what the laws of logic are, the laws of logic are merely properties of language and communication. Think of it like math: we did not "make up" mathematics in the sense that we "decided that 1+1=2", we simply made up numbers Read moreas a form of communicating the groups and values of things, and mathematics are merely a property of how these groups/values relate to each other, regardless of what we call them. We made up numbers, but mathematics is simply a function of numbers, just as we made up language and communication, but the laws of logic are simply a function of this. That's why your misunderstanding sounds so ridiculous.

▲▲Reply to this Link Context •••Agree Disagree Tell me more React Request reference + My feed Mute author Follow 1

@Patriot-#1776Constitution from Washington commented…4mos4MO

So, to clarify, the laws of logic are tools that we use because they work?

▲▲Reply to this Disagree 1 Link Context •••Agree Tell me more React Request reference + My feed Mute author Follow

@VulcanMan6 from Kansas disagreed…4mos4MO

No, the other way around. They work BECAUSE we made up what words mean and how communication functions. The laws of logic were not some kind of objective force that we discovered and decided to utilize, like the laws of gravity or the laws of physics, nor are the laws of logic something that we decided on, like legal laws...they are simply functions derived from the made-up meanings that we created as a means of communicating. There would be no "laws of logic" if we did not make up meanings for things; there were no "laws of logic" until we created meanings and applied the… Read morem to each other. The laws of logic only work BECAUSE we all accept a universal understanding for certain meanings, like what "true" and "false" are; these laws only work so long as we all accept that words mean what we assigned them to mean.

▲▲Reply to this Agree Disagree Link Context •••Tell me more React Request reference + My feed Mute author Follow 1

Show 1 reply

About this author

Learn more about the author that submitted this disagreement.

@Patriot-#1776

Last activeActivity1,403 discussionsInfluence1 engagementsEngagement bias100%Audience bias32%Active in

PartyConstitutionLocationUnknown

39 Replies

About this author

Discussions

Voter guides

Data & analytics

Candidates

About