Converation thread

No, in fact, I would support instant secession from the union the moment such programs were proposed

Then freaking secede already, that’s been happening for decades.

That’s literally the destruction of the USA, great way to cripple a nation entirely.

The USA is already crippled entirely and I am supporting secession as a peaceable solution to conservative-leftist strife and a remedy to the endless spending of Washington DC. Secession is a constitutional right of the states, and the Founders would instantly demand secession if they were teleported to the modern age.

They would have problems with all sides, and they’re not in charge anymore, nor should the basis of an entire country for 300 years onward solely follow the directions of 20 year old revolution era thinkers down to the letter. Every person who’s ever created a country or an ideology would be mad with where it went, for better or for worse. Secession destroys the USA’s military ability within a near instant, draws borders, separates families, and creates thoudands upon thousand of new issues, one’s possibly far worse than conservative-progressive debate.

Secession is absolutely necessary to protect the sovereignty of Texas

No it really isn’t, and they, despite popular myth, cannot secede. The civil war solidified that, and it’s not up to just Texas as a whole, that requires the Supreme Court and the consent of the states. It can’t happen, and shouldn’t.

The Tenth Amendment says that all powers not specifically given to the federal government are reserved for the states (we've gone through this at length, remember the General Welfare discussion?) and the states NEVER voluntarily surrendered these rights, therefore LEGALLY the states still possess the residuary mass of right to their self-government, have their own sovereignty and independence, and have a duty nullify unconstitutional laws and secede from the Union as they so choose. Show me when, in history, the states ever surrendered these rights, and I may reconsider, but I can guarantee you they never, ever, surrendered them voluntarily. But I do challenge you to find me an instance in which they did...

The “right” to secede was interpreted to never truly be allowed in the first place in the Supreme Court case of 1869 Texas v. White. At least, they are not allowed to do so, even by state majority, on a unilateral basis if the other states and the federal government did not permit it. The only way it leaves is if the US government is okay with it, and no, that’s never happening. It would require a massive change of precedent, and a large majority of the Supreme Court AND congress to let them leave.

Look, in the Constitution for the following clause: "The judicial power of the United States shall be vested in a Supreme Court, which shall be the final arbiter and decider of all constitutional disputes within this Union, shall have no limits on its power but what it itself establishes, and shall be allowed to rewrite the constitution to the detriment of state sovereignty as it shall see fit." Don't see it? That's because it doesn't exist. The Supreme Court was never intended to decide such momentous measures, it was intended to settle law suits that could not be…  Read more decided at state courts, not be an imperial judgeocracy governed by nine unelected oracles who can negate states rights with a strike of their mystical hammers. The States, were, in fact, intended to bee the final arbiters of what's constitutional, and were supposed to fulfil the current tyrannical function of the Supreme Court by interposing their sovreignty against unconstitutional legislation via nullification. Ever heard of the Kentucky and Virginia resolves? Look them up this instant. They were written by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, proposed to the legislatures of those two states, and passed, to declare null and void John Adams' Alien & Sedition Acts. Ever heard of the Hartford Convention of 1815? No? That's when New England nullified James Madison's military program and threatened to secede? The South Carolina nullification of the Tariff in 1832? No? Look it up. Wisconsin, in the 1850s, nullifying the Fugitive Slave Act? No? Look it up.

Sometimes the states don’t get a choice in this situation, secession is one of them. Even the articles of confederation didn’t expressly allow the full secession of a state at will, a legal loophole was used to reach that point, which was exploited to create the new Constitution in the first place as a result, and no matter what ancient cases have been made, the cases more recent and strong in precedent trump them, thereby making that right disagreed upon at best, and rejected unless stated directly in the constitution as a right. The Supreme Court is designed to interpret the con…  Read morestitution, and that case involved the constitutionally protected or unprotected practices, and only two states actually seceded legally: West Virginia and Maine, which later remained states, and just barely so as much as succeeding from itself. The federalists made it clear that the right of secession wasn’t allowed without agreement, and the only other way past that is violent revolution. The most Texas can do is split itself (likely not legally) into 5 different pieces, creating 4 new states and quintupling its power in the senate. Other than that, they can’t, and regardless of if they ever claimed to “surrender” that right, they don’t get it in the first place as of now. Too bad, so sad, the Union can’t break.

Sometimes the states don’t get a choice in this situation,

Explain why they wouldn't. Explain to me why states unanimously recognised at their founding as "free and independent" sovereign republics with the mass of right to their own self-government NOT have a choice ANY matter they did not expressly delegate the federal government authority to preside over in the confederal Contract we call the Constitution? That's what I asked for.