Discussing - I’m not trying to prove Hamas right, I’m explai…

I’m not trying to prove Hamas right, I’m explaining why it happened, why Hamas did that, and what made them mad enough to do that.

And to hell, I say, with their motivations. Their terrorist attack is totally unjustified, their indiscriminate slaughter, and deliberate targeting, of women and children is unsurpassed in the grimmest catalogue of human barbarity the blood of thousands of wars has written. And in inflicting that gravest of atrocities on Israel's population, they forced the nation, which had long been seeking, but never truly finding, peace and co-existence with the war-mongering Arab States, into yet another war for the mere survival of their society, against the ravages of the Muslim extremists who thirsted for the blood of every Jewish person, and the destruction of that bastion of civilisation, Israel, standing in their island of terror and ignorance.

colonization, decades of it. The soldiers of Hamas are the kids and relatives of those who’d previously lived in the land the Israelis took during the war. They were breaking into places they had memories of, places they’d lived in and remembered the loss of for generations.

BS. Don't start whining to me about "colonisation" when the people of Israel, who had, three thousand years before, first created their nation there; who endured ROMAN colonisation for centuries. Though many were forcibly removed from their beloved homeland, the Jewish presence in modern-day Israel never ceased – they continued to live there, through the occupation of the Roman Empire, through the Middle Ages, through to the modern age and final re-establishment of their nation. In particular, they still had thriving communities throughout this time in Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed (Tzfat), and Tiberias – the claim that the Jews had been absent, and suddenly disrupted the blameless Muslims inhabiting their land and "colonised" them, is utterly crap. They were the ones expelled by the hand of imperialism, and throughout… Read more this dark era, they never stopped yearning to return to their homeland and reclaim it from those who had conquered it.

Israel is an apartheid-based colonial entity

Colonialism refers to an attempt by an imperial power to replace the native population of a land with a new society of settlers. It cannot describe a reality in which a national group, acting on its behalf and not at the behest of an external power, returned to its historic homeland to achieve self-determination while simultaneously supporting the creation of a nation-state for another national group alongside the creation of their own state. To say otherwise is stupid. Jewish and Israeli leaders have consistently acknowledged the presence of Palestinian Arabs and have supported efforts to partition the land into Jewish and Arab states, from 1937 to the present day. The best-known attempt to divide the land came in the form of the 1947 UN Partition Plan, which was accepted by the local Jewish population but rejected by their Arab neighbors, who waged war to eliminate the Jewish state. More recently, successive Israeli prime ministers have offered to concede more than 90% of the West Bank and all of Gaza to create a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Palestinian leaders, however, have consistently rejected efforts at bringing about a two-state solution, as they did in 1947, and they continue to do so to this day.

The Torah also consistently tells of the same goals, desires, and demands, with consistently genocidal, ethnically violent, or revolutionary ideas

I feel like I'm over-using this term, but I have no choice but to use it again – BS. God never advocated for genocide, racist, or revolutionary idea, much to the contrary, he established moral grounds upon doing unto others and charity and philanthropy toward all people, while still rising up against evil. The Koran, however, is an extremely radical and deranged text advocating for all manner of atrocities. Besides, before you condemn the Bible, or the Torah, which is the first five books of the Bible, you still have yet to address my apparently irrefutable assertion that it is the only logical and moral possibility.

Genocide isn’t something that happens all at once, nor is it specific to extremely stringent conditions, otherwise most genocides wouldn’t be classified as such by the UN’s rules.

The UN defines genocide as the commission of grave harm against members of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group - such as by killing, causing serious physical or mental harm, inflicting conditions that bring about physical destruction, imposing measures to prevent births or forcibly taking away children - with the intent to destroy the group as such.

Genocide means targeting members of a group because of their group identity and not something they are individually thought to have done.

Israel’s war is against Hamas: Israel is not seeking to destroy the Palestinian people or the Palestinian population of Gaza, which is what would need to happen in order to correctly apply the term “genocide.” Israel’s leaders have repeatedly asserted that their campaign in Gaza is solely against the terrorist organization Hamas. In fact, this type of military campaign is the exact opposite of reflecting an attempt to eliminate the Palestinian population. Furthermore, on occasions in which Israeli officials have made statements reflecting callous disregard for Palestinian civilian lives, they have been disciplined and the IDF has reiterated that it has no wish to harm innocents. This is one of those curious cases were someone spews not a half-truth, not even a lie with a shred of truth, but the exact inverse of the truth. Israel is defending itself from a genocidal terroristic attack by a Muslim extremist paramilitary gang of murderers. Here is a Hamas leader affirming his commitment to the destruction and annihilation of Israel: (copy it into your browser)

Hamas official: We will repeat October 7 attacks until Israel is annihilatedhttps:haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/hamas-official-we-will-repeat-october-7-attacks-until-israel-is-annihilated/0000018b-8b9d-db7e-af9b-ebdfbee90000

https:haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/hamas-official-we-will-repeat-october-7-attacks-until-israel-is-annihilated/0000018b-8b9d-db7e-af9b-ebdfbee90000

Their stated intention is to annihilate worldwide Jews. That is Hamas's mission – and so it must be snuffed out.

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@9CJ6CB6 from Virginia disagreed…2wks2W

When everything is a “who started it first” situation, nothing has a justification, or everything does. This happened because the Israelis were demolishing the West Bank, the area with NO influence or ownership by Hamas. What’s their excuse there? They’ve killed thousands of children and innocent civilians in the West Bank for decades, and the only ruling authority there is the PA, which is openly and evidentially inside the pocket of the Israelis in most every respect. The Israelis already target civilians, they already kill en masse, then play the victim while shooti… Read moreng fish in a barrel because they got splashed. They have not sought peace, they have sought the land itself. Few Zionists in their congress actually care about peace. They claim they’re fighting because they want the hostages, then they kill the hostages anyway after being offered them back from the MOMENT the October 7th attack happened.

They claim they care only about Hamas, yet indiscriminately fire on civilian infrastructure because there’s supposed terrorists there. Funny part is, if all those targets actually did have the weapons they claim they did, Israel would’ve been DEAD by now, because they’ve flattened over 80% of Gaza and displaced over 90% of its people, now placing them mostly in Rafah, the area they plan to invade, which now has one of the highest population densities in human history.

The proposals for a second state were a trap, they knew it, the terms of the deal were ridiculously unacceptable and would’ve subverted chances at actual independence here. Israel’s official policy of the two-state solution for DECADES has been that the only reason they’d accept it was if it would give them the tactical advantage to further expand later. They have no intention of stopping, their settlers moving into Palestinian territory are encouraged to go there, their own military assists them in the process almost every time. There’s no possible excuse they can make up to explain why they seriously claim to care about a two-state solution if their own policy, actions, and people deny it.

They think they own the entire region when people already live there, and that’s consistently been the core of it. Check their media, check their public opinion, so many of them think they should OWN Gaza, but they don’t even have any historical ownership of that area either, yet they still insist they do. Never once do people ask what the terms of the deals before were, and they were shockingly bad and coercive. Take the Oslo Accords, everyone thinks it was some sort of good solution, but at NO point in the deal did the text detail the creation of a state. All it did was let the PA be a provisional authority, one with heavy control by the Israelis. They dismantled their power to actually choose in the West Bank, leaving the areas such as Gaza completely under outside control of the Israelis without having to step in at all.

The outside Arab states, such as during 1948, were extremely outgunned by Israel, though the Israelis claim they’re dogmatic, savage, and reactionary without any restraint, they were vastly stronger than most every nation surrounding them because we funded the crap out of Israel. It relies on us to live, they know it, we know it. Israel has only very recently had any worries of outside attacks, but they still have so much diplomatic power they’re almost guaranteed never to be invaded by outside nations unless they do something extremely stupid. They had no real worries about their survival, they won because we tipped the scales with massive aid packages, while the newly formed Arab states had very little military power to deal with Israel properly in a fight.

Most of these nations despise Jewish people because the Israelis perpetuated EXACTLY the stereotypes they believed previously. If they’d not done the ridiculously evil crap they defend as of now, antisemitism would be FAR weaker in the Middle East. The Arabs don’t inherently hate the Jews, heck, Jews enjoyed their longest period of peace during the rule of Saladin and later Ottoman Empire citizenship. Palestinians are largely the remains of Jewish people who stayed after the diaspora, though many of them have heavy connections with other Semitic peoples such as the Assyrians, Persians, and Egyptians (at the ancient times), they have a much more direct and long lasting connection to the land than others. They’re not just Arabs that showed up in the 7th century, they’re the amalgamation of everyone who’s lived their for the last several thousand years. Israel kills these people, often demoralizing Arab Jews who sided WITH the Palestinians during the 1948 era.

Israel is no symbol of civilization, its existence was built upon some of the worst demagoguery of their time, which is why millions of Jews found Zionism repulsive at the time, they’re founders and principles went way too far for many prominent Jewish organizations and figures.

Take the 6th Prime Minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, who openly proclaimed to be a terrorist himself, he attacked the British, he attacked the Arabs during the 1948 war, bragging about his crimes. He was refused entry to Britain, and was described as a terrorist by them as well. Einstein recognized him as a “Nazi”, publicly calling upon the American president to bar him from visiting America during diplomatic talks. Einstein himself was still a Zionist, but believed in a bi-national non-aggressive state with secular values. He himself would be considered a one-state tolerant Zionist, and very likely would side with a lot of Palestinians today.

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@9CJ6CB6 from Virginia commented…2wks2W

The kingdom of Judea was one of many who existed there, and if we must pull this ancient history “blood and soil” nonsense, their own scripture states they’d killed the Canaanites who lived in the region because it was their promised land. If you believe their own scriptural histories, then they are quite literally the genocidal types in the past themselves. Palestinians have a stronger connection to Canaanites overall, with far less non-Middle Eastern genetic variation than most modern-day Jews.

These arguments betray themselves, because Palestinians are already linked with… Read more the genetic history of the Jews. I’m not trying to deny Jews we’re there, I’m saying the Palestinians ARE related to the Jews, though many were or were not religiously Jewish, genetically they are very similar and close to the historically “linked” Jewish people. Zionist efforts never really started inside the Palestinian sphere, they came from outside every single time. The people who conquerer it mixed with those who stayed, and they have lived in relative peace in comparison to those outside the area, though the land has been repeatedly invaded many times afterwards, they’re much more close to the land.

Jews outside the region very rarely had widespread belief they’d get the land back, many tried to settle where they were for the sake of putting down roots and being happy. Most didn’t just CHOOSE to uproot their lives, that started when they already had been by the Nazis, the British just redirected it because the first inclination of most Jewish people was NOT to go back to the Palestine region. Some did, I’m not denying that, but it’s been thousands of years, they can migrate, but they don’t get to decide the matters of everyone else there.

Honestly, it makes me laugh how you believe in the Great Replacement, but when European Jews openly, loudly, and publicly say that they want there to only be Jews in the land, you defend it with ancient history that would make a thousand changes to the rest of the world by its own logic. If we’re gonna give them the land back to make it like 2000 BCE, then we’re gonna give america back to the Indians, and we’re all gonna go back to Europe. There’s no arguments to be made for their “ownership” of the land when it would drastically change the entirety of the globe if it was ACTUALLY morally consistent. And here you are, claiming that I’M the one who lacks consistency.

Oxford definition of colonialism: “the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically.” Literally ALL of this has happened in Palestine. They have used the water access from Gaza to fuel their own agriculture, desertifying nearly the entire Gazan territory. Israel controls most of the West Bank, owns over 2/3s of land they colonized by mass migration and economic assistance for military expansion, and indirectly owns the key to Gazan sovereignty. Oh but no, there’s no other big state making this happen… wait no that’s just about every Zionist government funding them, while they give America massive paychecks through AIPAC, while assisting us with weapons development and storage. Literally 100% of Gaza is in severe humanitarian crisis, which is the first time we have EVER measured an area to be as such. That’s how bad it is right now, there’s no justification for this atrocity, not for Hamas’ weak hit to Israel, not for enraged rhetoric from a colonized people.

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@9CJ6CB6 from Virginia commented…2wks2W

God literally committed genocide several times according to religious scripture. That was the Canaanite invasion by the Hebrews, the Great Flood, and many more, and religious people are expected to not just believe it was god’s will, but also that it was a positive development. Religion itself is bathed in blood, I’m not here to defend Islam, I’m here to say others are no different. Israelis today quote their own scriptural verses when making clear genocidal statements about Palestinians, that’s utter nonsense to reject here. Philanthropy is established in Christianity… Read more, Judaism, and Islam, but they’re still hilariously bloody, because they’re always a mixed bag. That’s why I’m not an apatheist per se, but a strong anti-state religion believer. I am not assuming my own belief of these books by quoting them, I am assuming that these beliefs others hold are true to them, making it their own personally held reality. It’s hypothetical, not personally held. If you believe it, you must defend it, and so too must Canaan, the Flood, and much more. If these are defendable to you, genocide itself is, and that’s a very dangerous situation.

That definition of genocide quite literally fills the description of what is happening. Israel has been obsessed with establishing Jews as a majority, with heavy amounts of investment put into separating districts in a sort of race-gerrymandering fashion, while othering Arab Jews who lived in the region beforehand as “self-hating” Jews for refusing to support expansion of the Israeli state. Don’t ask me for that confirmation, ask the Deputy Mayor of East Jerusalem, Dennis Prager, the majority of their Knesset members, or even their Defense Minister and Prime Minister themselves.

They have that view, Netanyahu has called the Palestinians less than human, Gallant called them “animals”, the rhetoric, dehumanization, separation, policy, engagement, and violence are all there. There’s nothing to be hidden here. Go to East Jerusalem, visit their settlements in the land the PA is supposedly in charge of. Check the Al-Aqsa mosque, and its history of being attacked during Ramadan by settlers and accosted by Israeli police. Their Knesset leadership consistently calls upon the military to flatten Gaza, to turn it into their own territory with nothing even resembling Palestinians remaining.

Settlers in Gaza have beaten aid truck drivers, thinking they were giving aid to Palestinians, when it was actually for IDF soldiers. They’re that ridiculously conceited, their population is that openly racist. They’re not hiding, just like Zionists didn’t hide the fact that their movement was a colonial movement. The amount of dehumanization is only climbing too. Even before the war, separated and drastically poorer enclaves of Arabs were treated by Israeli Jews as revolting places to silently wish to destroy. Separation is there, it’s real, and it’s open.

They rarely ever punish their own soldiers or leadership for outwardly genocidal statements, they’ve been posting them for years, and even when Hamas hasn’t been an issue, when the PA and Fatah have sided with Israel, they still won’t negotiate with the PA and Fatah. If Hamas disappeared today, they’d find another reason to still invade Rafah, theyve always done it even when Palestinians had used peaceful protest, when they had used their own nonviolent methods of defending themselves. The body committing a genocide cannot be trusted to be a source of information on whether or not they’re doing it, because they’d deny it every time. You don’t ask the people committing it, you ask the people experiencing it and those who are watching it happen, and the answer has consistently been YES from the Palestinians individually and collectively.

They violate the 4th Geneva Convention VERY consistently, they’ve done it at an alarming rate as well, along with 28 binding and internationally required laws and regulations which target basic human rights and anti-colonialist practices. They violated it by assisting in the illegal use of settlements inside of Gaza and the West Bank, by disregarding the rights of Palestinians in their criminal courts which charges minors with a 98% conviction rate, and they ignored the most basic legal requirements for humanitarian aid to the Gaza and West Bank regions.

The IDF doesn’t need to universally wish direct harm upon them, they still commit it nonetheless, their individuals do not on the occasion, but the restive policy of their government has shown little systematic care for the impact they’re having on Gazans. If they cared about casualties and slaughter, they wouldn’t have massacred over 90 doctors, civilians, and children inside the Al-Shifa hospital, they would’ve condemned their own violence and strongly, clearly, and concisely commanded their soldiers to take every measure possible to stop killing, and they would be enforcing it. Instead they commit to policies from the very top of “mowing the grass” in Gaza, even before the war, by bombing indiscriminately to discourage revolt. This is their standard policy, and the only things they ever openly punish are overtly massive calls for genocide form high profile politicians, often with minor punishments and an appeal to the UN that it somehow doesn’t reflect their consistent track record.

I’ve never seen a country that’s defending itself bomb its enemies, who are unable to leave a surrounded city-province, at a rate nearly as high as during the war on Laos. I’ve never seen someone defending themselves go out of their way to slaughter children in an area where their enemies aren’t even around. I’ve never seen a state defending itself by killing over 33 times as many people in one of the most impoverished areas on earth as a response. That’s not defense, that’s a massacre, that’s an atrocity that humanity has failed miserably to condemn. Hamas itself has been compromising more and more to Israel, now dropping a lot of its support for a one-state Palestinian solution, and garnering support for a two-state solution out of sheer desperation. The state of the people of Gaza however is far worse than ever before in their entire history. They have never been more starved, more powerless, and more vulnerable than now, and nothing can ever defend that.

Israel has impoverished the Palestinians, stolen their land, assisted settlers stealing their homes, killed them on an industrial scale, committed deprivation of basic resources, deprived them of a state, destroyed their families, desertified their environment, ruined their desalination plants, violated the 4th Geneva convention at its most basic level, ignored the international community, obliterated all colleges and hospitals in Gaza, pummeled resistance, and forced nonviolent territories to take massive humanitarian costs. This is inexcusable, it is a disgrace to Judaism, it is a violation of all human decency, it is shameful to the planet itself, and it deserves the most severe condemnation in the power of all nations of earth. The fact that Palestinians have not universally despised Jews themselves is a testament to their tolerance, and they have proven they want peace, they lack the guns to prove otherwise, so I ask you, who ACTUALLY wants peace here?

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